Spec V dyno

mjeffries · Tweet this Post! #1 (**permalink**) 03-16-2008, 04:26 PM

Dyno'd my '03 Spec V Saturday @ Extreme Motorsports in Maryland. 247hp, 241ft/lb. Good numbers but I must admit I was expecting a little more since T'Netics claims 240 wheel horsepower with only the T'Netics kit. Aside from the Turbonetics kit I also have...

JWT Balancer Shaft Removal
2.5'' Nismo catback
APEX'i SAFC neo (the Turbonetics reflash was ridiculously rich!)
Water/Meth injection @ ~4psi

I'll be upgrading to a 3'' midpipe and catback soon, that should free up a little more.

I have a question about the reflash. Was any timing pulled? If so, how much? With my water/meth injection I don't think bumping my timing back up to the stock value would be a bad idea. I'll see if I can find a dealership to take care of that.

The air/fuel graph shows me hovering right over 12.0:1 but I don't really trust that, I've got an exhaust leak somewhere.

TurboKits.com · Tweet this Post! #2 (**permalink**) 03-17-2008, 10:38 AM

That water/meth injection is what's killing your power... It raises the active octane rating of the fuel and cools the charge. If you are not using that benefit to redo the timing & fuel maps then you are leaving power on the table... Who did the tuning? Are they familiar with tuning using water/meth injection?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjeffries

Dyno'd my '03 Spec V Saturday @ Extreme Motorsports in Maryland. 247hp, 241ft/lb. Good numbers but I must admit I was expecting a little more since T'Netics claims 240 wheel horsepower with only the T'Netics kit. Aside from the Turbonetics kit I also have...

JWT Balancer Shaft Removal
2.5'' Nismo catback
APEX'i SAFC neo (the Turbonetics reflash was ridiculously rich!)
Water/Meth injection @ ~4psi

I'll be upgrading to a 3'' midpipe and catback soon, that should free up a little more.

I have a question about the reflash. Was any timing pulled? If so, how much? With my water/meth injection I don't think bumping my timing back up to the stock value would be a bad idea. I'll see if I can find a dealership to take care of that.

The air/fuel graph shows me hovering right over 12.0:1 but I don't really trust that, I've got an exhaust leak somewhere.

mjeffries · Tweet this Post! #3 (**permalink**) 03-17-2008, 10:49 AM

The only tuning, other than the Turbonetics reflash, has been done by myself using an AFC on the street. I don't claim to know what I'm doing, all I've been shooting for with my "tune" is 11.5 A/F ratio during wide open throttle, 14.7-15.0 A/F ratio during idle and cruise.

I have no way of adjusting my timing other than going to a dealership and getting them to do it.

Quote:

That water/meth injection is what's killing your power... It raises the active octane rating of the fuel and cools the charge. If you are not using that benefit to redo the timing & fuel maps then you are leaving power on the table...

I understand that by not advancing my timing (or another route would be raising the boost) I am not taking full advantage of the water/meth injection but I don't see how it would be "killing" my power. You said it yourself, the charge is being cooled. A cooler charge = more density. I'm not saying that a denser charge will give me any gains by itself but I really can't see losing power.

Feel free to set me straight if I'm off on some of these concepts.

TurboKits.com · Tweet this Post! #4 (**permalink**) 03-17-2008, 11:06 AM

1 simple reason, your pissing on the fire...

There are 2 main uses for water/meth injection
1) For a more agressive tune & more boost
2) As a safetly net on your existing tune.

Water/Meth Injection by itself normally does not create a gain in HP...
(There are many variables I will not get into as they do not apply to your set up, but the base of my statement is correct)

Hope this helps...

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjeffries

The only tuning, other than the Turbonetics reflash, has been done by myself using an AFC on the street. I don't claim to know what I'm doing, all I've been shooting for with my "tune" is 11.5 A/F ratio during wide open throttle, 14.7-15.0 A/F ratio during idle and cruise.

I have no way of adjusting my timing other than going to a dealership and getting them to do it.

Quote:

That water/meth injection is what's killing your power... It raises the active octane rating of the fuel and cools the charge. If you are not using that benefit to redo the timing & fuel maps then you are leaving power on the table...

I understand that by not advancing my timing (or another route would be raising the boost) I am not taking full advantage of the water/meth injection but I don't see how it would be "killing" my power. You said it yourself, the charge is being cooled. A cooler charge = more density. I'm not saying that a denser charge will give me any gains by itself but I really can't see losing power.

Feel free to set me straight if I'm off on some of these concepts.

Robert · Tweet this Post! #5 (**permalink**) 03-19-2008, 12:03 AM

I 100% agree with Jesse's assessment here. The water meth injection is going to rob a lot of your power when sprayed. There was timing pulled out of the flash but its done via dynamic load settings across the Q table in the ECU so it was not a static retard or a linear one either. Its done based on the knock input of the ECU. When you spray water/meth you are richening up the mixture even more then the reflash could have done. Most people that run water meth I recommend to either spray only on the track if its a diffuclt to tune engine management (ECU tune, etc) or if they are running a system with no means of timing adjustment. Others who would like to tune for all the time water/meth spray I recommend find an EMS solution that would allow them to control timing. On the older Specs I know thats a LOT easier said then done.

mjeffries · Tweet this Post! #6 (**permalink**) 03-19-2008, 05:56 AM

Well daggnabbit!! Thanks for the input guys. I'm not going to uninstall the injection kit so I'll just have to find some other way of getting that power back. Do you think raising the boost pressure from 8psi to 10psi would be a bad idea?

TurboKits.com · Tweet this Post! #7 (**permalink**) 03-19-2008, 08:49 AM

Anytime you raise the boost higher than the kit was originally set for you are taking a risk. However, with your water injection I think that 10 PSI would still be a safe # for you and would allow you to gain back that power the water injection took. I would suggest you do this with the aid of a professional tuner so that all of the engine vitals (A/F, Timing, Fuel Trims, etc) are being monitored...

The other option is to take it to a Unichip tuner and have them optimize the tune @ 8PSI w/ the injection.

Again, I wouldn't do anything without the aid of a professional tuner.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjeffries

Well daggnabbit!! Thanks for the input guys. I'm not going to uninstall the injection kit so I'll just have to find some other way of getting that power back. Do you think raising the boost pressure from 8psi to 10psi would be a bad idea?

Robert · Tweet this Post! #8 (**permalink**) 03-19-2008, 10:35 AM

I agree with Jesse in regards to going to a tuner or getting some load based dyno time before you start playing with the boost pressure. Just want to make sure that you adequately test the setup before you get on the road with it. In regards to raising the boost pressure a few of the Scion guys were running Water/Meth injection and raised their boost pressure from 8 PSI to 9.5 PSI and were still safe. This is however a completely different platform and the QR25 has a proven weaker bottom end then the 2AZ in the Scion so as Jesse said it is a risk that should only be taken after speaking with a tuner..